SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to the Mastering Podcast. I'm the host Magnus Olson and joining me today we've got my two favourite co-hosts, Don Sanka and Elliot Hill. Welcome guys. Hello.

SPEAKER_00: 0:12

Welcome, mate.

SPEAKER_02: 0:13

But does Will and uh Lucas know that we're your favourites?

SPEAKER_00: 0:17

Yeah, I was gonna ask the Sam question just then. What about uh Ryan?

SPEAKER_02: 0:21

Oh, I forgot about him.

SPEAKER_01: 0:22

Whoops and Ryan. It's a bit like being a parent. All your kids are your favourites, aren't they? Just depending on which one you're talking to.

SPEAKER_00: 0:29

Mate, it's good to be back. We we had a bit of a break after our first season. Um yeah, it was it was interesting, right? Like we got a fair few episodes together. It was a bit of a test. Uh I think we're all guns of basing going to 2026 now.

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

We're getting better. It's a continuous improvement motto that we have.

SPEAKER_02: 0:48

It's gonna be a good one, this one.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04

Today we're sitting down with a man whose story is the definition of resilience, identity, and reinvention. A man who refused to let one moment define his life. A man who represents courage, leadership, and the power of refusing to quit. Michael Dobby is a Paralympian, a world-class wheelchair athlete, three-time all Australian in wheelchair AFL, a coach, a leader, an advocate, and a driving force behind parasport development in Queensland. He's represented Australia on the world stage, competed in the Beijing 2008, built pathways for athletes who are once invisible in the system, and is now shaping the future of accessibility and inclusion as a board member, strategist and advisor. He has lived the highest highs, rebuilt himself through the darkest lows, and now carries a mission that extends far beyond sport, creating a world where every athlete, able body or not, has a place to belong, compete, and thrive. It's an absolute honour to have you on the podcast, mate.

SPEAKER_03: 2:06

Uh thanks for having me. I might like get you to do all my intros from now on. That was uh that was quite nice.

SPEAKER_01: 2:12

Mate, if I asked your mum, how would she describe your attributes and what were you like as a boy growing up?

SPEAKER_03: 2:19

Oh look, I was probably early on, I was a pretty good kid. I was the oldest, the first. I um kind of got to set the scene for the ones to follow and was always pretty well behaved until I was probably a teenager where I started to get into a little bit of trouble in regional Victoria and test the boundaries a little bit. Um, but I was always like even in the times where I was getting in trouble or doing the right thing, it didn't matter what, I I was pretty friendly and well liked by the community and was always wanted to be part of the community. I think that's something that's always been a really kind of constant in my life is that we're all better off being around a good bunch of people, and um that's something that I I hold dear to my heart.

SPEAKER_01: 3:03

Well, you call yourself a sporty kid or a uh a bit of an academic, or yeah, it's funny.

SPEAKER_03: 3:08

Like I was gonna try and pretend that I was an academic, but um definitely not. Um always sporty. Uh again, regional Victoria, you kind of play all your sports that are available. So kind of footy, basketball, tennis were my kind of constants that were always there, but dabbled in cricket, dabbled in squash. Um, I like to fancy myself as a rollerblader back in the day. Um the Mighty Ducks got kind of got me into uh roller hockey. Um, but uh yeah, that's we're trying, I think really.

SPEAKER_01: 3:41

I can relate to that. I'm a hockey player, ice hockey player. So what about you, Elliot? Were you a sporty child or an academic?

SPEAKER_02: 3:48

Definitely more the sporty space, and just fell in love with one particular sport, which you guys all know backwards. I still remember the first time.

SPEAKER_00: 3:57

I'm sure we got an episode all about it.

SPEAKER_02: 3:59

So I remember my first lesson and it just was the best feeling I've ever had in my entire life, and I've been lucky enough to make a career out of it. So sport definitely for me and being around good people have has helped me grow.

SPEAKER_01: 4:12

What about you, Don? I remember you're t saying that playing cricket in the on the beach in Sri Lanka.

SPEAKER_00: 4:17

Yeah, but I was uh I was always into track and feel athletics. Um I was a tragic sport, nut, to be honest. Um as you offered I tried everything. Um track and feel stuck, probably because I could run fast and jump over things.

SPEAKER_02: 4:34

What were you getting away from?

SPEAKER_00: 4:36

Everything, I think. Fences and laneways. Yeah, I all people were running away from me, and I'm I was trying to catch them, so it could be that.

SPEAKER_01: 4:48

All right, let's jump in. What um do you remember the moment when you had a bit of a life-changing event? Is that something that you'd just like to share with us a little bit?

SPEAKER_03: 4:58

Yeah, I remember it uh well, like it was yesterday, but I was I was conscious for the whole thing, so fairly good memory of it. But uh December 4th, 2001, so what are we? October the 10th, so 24 years and six days or something. Um I was riding my motorbike to work and um got involved in a in a little accident. A guy driving a four-wheel drive and towing a caravan didn't see me and just kind of collected me. And I went to get away from from him and ran into another car and then fell on the road and got run over by the caravan that the guy was towing. So it was kind of just a I guess just a series of accidents that that happened, and I remember laying on the road. Um, I couldn't feel anything, but uh um it's really weird like what your body does to you in that moment. I was obviously in a lot of pain, but that's not the memory. The memory is it was really hot laying on the road because it was like it was December in Melbourne, it's a pretty warm time of year, and the road's pretty hot, and so laying on my back on the road, that was just all I remember. And um, so I was fortunate enough that there was a a nurse in a couple of cars behind that saw the whole thing and came over and just kind of kept me comfortable until the ambulance arrived.

SPEAKER_01: 6:16

Where did your mind go those first few days? And what did you struggle with the most?

SPEAKER_03: 6:21

Um, it's all a bit of a rush in the first couple of days because you like you get taken to hospital and I got taken to the closest hospital, but then once they figured out kind of where um things were at, and my parents had come down from regional Victoria, um, so everyone kind of arrived and it was all happening, and they do all the tests, understand um, I guess what's happened, um, then they realize that like you're not in the best hospital, so then they next day they move you to another hospital and they start planning what the the surgery is going to look like. Um, and then kind of so you don't really have a great deal of time to think. Like you you're pretty out of it, like you're on pretty heavy drugs at the time just to keep your pain levels down. And so it's probably not until you have your surgery that you really have time to think. And for me, that was delayed slightly. Uh the the level of seriousness from the uh fracture in my spine was quite big, like I shattered two vertebrae completely, and so they needed a a specialist um to come in and do that surgery. She was on holidays at the time, so we had to wait for her to get back. Um so I had an extra couple of days in there at the start to think about things.

SPEAKER_00: 7:31

How did you negotiate that in your head?

SPEAKER_03: 7:33

Yeah, I I didn't have a choice. Right. Like you don't you you can't go back, you can't change it. Like and I'm very pragmatic uh in everything that I do, and so the option is that you you just move on. Like you it is what it is, you can't change it, you deal with it, and there's times that it's really tough, right? I'm not kind of discounting that at all, but you you have the option to either kind of be there and be sad about it and just kind of wallow in that, or just try and move forward and make the most of what you've got.

SPEAKER_00: 8:07

Can I ask Michael, what was your life like leading into that moment? Before we talk about my you know, it's very well documented, we know who you are as Michael now, but what was your life like before that moment?

SPEAKER_03: 8:20

Um, I wasn't great, to be honest. Like I I had a plan through high school that I wanted to be an outdoor education teacher. I busted my knee playing basketball in year twelve, that meant that I missed a bit of school. I then went to the interview to get into the university degree, which was like really competitive, and they were essentially like, you're gonna get a knee reconstruction at the end of the year, you're gonna be out for a year, you're not gonna be doing able to do any of the practical component of the course, so you're not gonna get in. So that kind of derailed everything, right? Like I didn't really have a plan after that, um, because I had that was my one plan. Um, and so from that moment I kind of just thought, I'll just see kind of what happens. And I stayed in the country for a couple of years and tried to uh like find a career there, didn't really find anything that I liked. Um, my uncle was uh one of the head chefs at a restaurant at Crown Casino, he offered me a job, so it's like oh that seems fun, I'll go and have a go at that, get there. I'm like, I hate this. You get yelled at all the time. You it's not a great environment to work in. Working in a casino, I I I find really challenging. You kind of rock up at six in the morning and on a Tuesday and there's people gambling their life away. And so I didn't love it. I hated the job, I was looking for something to get out of it, I but I didn't know what that was. Um and then have an accident. So I kind of almost in a way came at a really good time because I didn't have another plan. So uh it gave me time to reset and just think about what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01: 9:54

Is it is it true that three days after the accident you told your parents that I'm gonna be a Paralympian?

SPEAKER_03: 10:00

Yeah, and like it's so that is exactly what happened, but I had no kind of concept of what that was. So it was a really easy statement to make because I love sport and that was uh a thing to focus on. Didn't know what sports were available, didn't know what I wanted to do. I'd played a bit of tennis, I'd played a bit of basketball, so they were kind of easy things to start thinking about. Um but yeah, that was how how old were you? Twenty-one. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00: 10:29

So you're quite quite young when you're gonna be. Yeah, yeah. So was that a coping mechanism for you to say, okay, this is what I'm gonna do?

SPEAKER_03: 10:37

Yeah, I think if you've got something in kind of in front of you that you can that you can look at and you can start working towards and um gives you something to focus on when things are not great, you can kind of go, well, it's okay, I've just got to get through this time that's not fantastic, and and that happens over a long period of time, kind of keeps coming back, and um but if you've got something positive to look towards, it's easier to get through those times.

SPEAKER_01: 11:03

I think it's awesome. Like as a mindset perspective, it'd be so easy people be wallowing, looking back and saying, What if, what if, and why me? And your focus is just on the future, and how can I uh how can I somehow try and make the best of this?

SPEAKER_03: 11:17

Yeah, and I got so I got to rehab. So I I was in hospital for three weeks. Um, they ship you off to rehab. That's like right before Christmas. The rehab centre kind of shuts down because holidays and things like that. So I get there and there's nothing to do. Uh, and there was some people in that rehab centre that had not taken the approach that I'd have taken, and they were angry and they were shouting and they were uh not very nice to the nursing staff, and they didn't have people kind of coming to support them. And at the time I was like, Well, why would you want to go and spend time with them? They're always yelling and angry at people, but I don't know the rest of their life story, so I probably shouldn't have judged. But I kind of had a an example right in front of me that of the opposite of what I wanted to do. And but also like my parents were there, and they were like, if you ever speak to us that way, you'll uh know about it. So um it was a pretty clear instruction.

SPEAKER_01: 12:11

What did your training schedule look like? So, rehab, how long did that take? And then when did you get into actually proper training and what sport did you choose?

SPEAKER_03: 12:18

Uh so I was in rehab for about three months. Um and I I hated it. I just wanted to get home, so I probably went home. Was it hard that it happened just before Christmas, going through that holiday period of things? Yeah, it was. Like we had family Christmas in the kind of common area of the rehab center. Like it was wasn't great, but it was what it was. And just um I think the thing I struggled with the most is there was no one there. So you in rehab it's fine when you've got a daily program that's full and you do get to do all these activities, but then on the days where you've got nothing, that they're the days you start to kind of get a bit depressed and think about things. So um that was hard because like my parents had been with me for a month in hospital, and then I had young brothers and sisters at the time, so they went home to kind of prepare for Christmas and then come back, and so that was the first time I'd been alone as well, and so that was it was tough to to deal with.

SPEAKER_00: 13:10

You'll have to be resilient, right? Like it's easy to say, I'm gonna do a sport, I'm gonna be a Paralympian. But we've spoken to a lot of athletes. It's not that easy. Re rehab is awful. Doesn't matter what stage of rehab. You know, it doesn't matter who you are, that's really hard because you've got to find your pathway back.

SPEAKER_03: 13:28

Uh I had a really I did it's and again, it's probably in a way it's a coincidence, but the rehab centre that I was in was twenty minutes from the home of the Australian wheelchair tennis coach. He was coming in to give tennis lessons once a week. Um, and he'd heard that he had there was a a regional kid that was handy at sport that was in rehab and bored and starting to get on everyone's nerves. So he came in and um he came in and started giving me tennis lessons and the the day before I left he he gave me a racket and a can of tennis balls from the Sydney uh 2000 Paralympic Games and kind of just said, look, if you if you want to pursue this, like I it's a difficult time of your life, but if you want to pursue it, I think you've got the the talent there to make something of this. And so I went to tennis lessons the day I got home from rehab. I just found a coach in the local area um that was had done a bit of wheelchair tennis coaching, and on day one I went and had a hit, and it wasn't until I went to my my 12-month check-up they were like, Oh, we'll clear you to play sport now. And I'm like, I've been playing sport for eight months now. So um but anyway, to answer your question, I played wheelchair basketball and wheelchair tennis because they were the easy ones. Um the programs already existed in the area that I was moving back to, and so it was just an easy way. Again, there was people there that had been in chairs for a long period of time that I could learn from, uh, and so they became pretty important.

SPEAKER_01: 14:58

Can you perhaps just explain for us? So, as an able-bodied person and the way that you hit a tennis ball, what's that like when you're sitting in a chair and trying to have any level of weight transfer? Just explain that for us.

SPEAKER_03: 15:10

It's difficult at the start when you're you're in rehab and you haven't really pushed a chair much and you're trying to learn how to hit. Um, again, if the ball was hit to me, I was pretty good at forehand and backhand. Um, serving from that position was quite challenging because you're a lot lower and you've got no kind of lift through your legs. Um but it's it's just the movement, and so once you spend more time in your chair and work out the kind of the biomechanics of moving that chair, then it's like I found it quite easy in the end, um, or throughout the the journey. Um But also playing multiple sports helps because you spend your whole time all day, every day you're in a chair, but then you've got five nights a week where you're in a sports chair and you're learning turning and moving and different body position and the pushing techniques and all those kind of things. Um so it kind of just really like I guess uh increases your level of understanding.

SPEAKER_00: 16:06

Elia, you've been involved in tennis a fair bit, right? So tennis seems to be like you said, there it was a tennis coach that approached you as well. There seems to be a really good support um base at tennis when it especially when it comes to Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:23

I I think that as a professional sport, we've been doing it for a really long time. You know, we we've been doing a lot of things for a really long time. But I think it's again, tennis is a sport that is equitable for everyone. So we've had equal prize money longer than any other sport has had um for men and women and we've been doing amazing work in the inclusion space for a super long time. Like we've just it's really normal for us. And I remember when I first went into tennis like 15 years ago, I remember the inclusivity space was in like my little portfolio. And at that time we said, why is it in one portfolio? And we actually then it's just a part of everyone's PD. If you're in schools, you have inclusivity to be there. It's not actually an extra line in the PD, it's just it's just what you do. And I think that's what our sport's done for forever. I don't know any different. Um it's it's just it it's it's just inherent and the support we've got from every state, um, you know, going to rehab hospitals, you know, coaching. We we teach coaches how to coach all different types of abilities. Like it's just it's just there. We're really we're proud of it.

SPEAKER_00: 17:28

Yeah, it's true, right? I I I just struggled before. I was just trying to find the right word. And I didn't want to say the word disability because talking to you before, you sound a lot more able than I am.

SPEAKER_02: 17:37

So he'd be a much better tennis player than you. I yeah, he would be much better than you.

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

I love the things you're doing and and everything that you're involved in sounds like you're a lot more able than I am. So I didn't even like I couldn't even get that word out because it it shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_03: 17:50

Yeah, it's like it's interesting, right? Like language changes a lot. Um like I'm I'm really proud of like dis like having a disability and being part of that community. And there was a period of time, I don't know, maybe a decade ago, where people started to not want to mention disability, and it became it was all abilities, and then like that's kind of shifted now and what that means. But then there was like people started coming up with words like differently abled and all this other stuff, and I was just like, I can't get around it. I'm like, for one, my biggest thing is you have these situations where someone wants to talk about it, and in the the example that we've just spoken about, you wanted to talk about it, but you didn't know the right word to use, and so you start fumbling and you struggle, and then you have these moments where you don't want to talk about it because you don't know the right word. And if everyone just gets more comfortable talking about disability, then people won't feel that they they can't talk because that's the biggest thing awareness and understanding and all these things that we want the broader community to talk about and to be part of. If we keep changing the word that they're meant to use, how are they meant to to know what to talk about?

SPEAKER_01: 18:59

How how do you find it from an an identity perspective? Because I think that's a big one, and you mentioned the word disability. So is that something that you identified with, or how do you identify yourself now?

SPEAKER_03: 19:11

Oh I don't if we're having a conversation, I don't deliberately tell people that I have a disability because it's weird. Right? If you ask about my identity, I'm I'm a dad, I've got two young boys, that's my priority, I I'm on boards, I work, I do all these things that are part of giving back to the community. That's my ident identity. I get to do those things because I have a disability that that allowed me to enter into this new world and to have an impact that some other people don't get to have.

SPEAKER_01: 19:46

We talked about pathways before. So this accident for you happened in 2001, and then in 2008, seven years later, aren't you representing Australia at the 2008 Beijing Games? What was that like?

SPEAKER_03: 19:58

Oh, the games itself was incredible. It's um it's probably the best tournament I've ever had, which is for like for me, like I think about I go, that's the biggest tournament I ever played in. That was always the goal to get to that. I've never felt more comfortable at a tournament than at that one. And part of that is there was less pressure because I was like the second last person to qualify for the games, so there wasn't that expectation that I was going to win a gold medal, and I imagine that would be very different for the for people that go in expecting to win. Um, but I also did the work like leading up to that, and I I'd done a heap of work with a sports psychologist, with strength and conditioning, with all these different people to get me to that point of feeling really comfortable, and then the courts were kind of modeled off Melbourne Park, so that just made me feel like I was at my home center. I didn't go away and do training camp like everyone else had done because I'd been away for nine months leading up to that. So I chose to stay home and train at Melbourne Park because the courts were the same anyway, and so by the time I got there, and I'm not sure if you remember, the leading into the games, it was like the humidity and the pollution were the biggest issues. When we got there, the industry had been shut down for a month, like leading up to that. So the clear blue skies, it was raining, so there was no humidity. Like day two got rained out for us, so it was like 27 degrees and just like calm, beautiful weather. And so I'd been preparing for 40 degree days where you can't breathe because of the pollution and the humidity, and then you get there and you don't have to worry about it.

SPEAKER_01: 21:40

What led you to decide to leave tennis and take up AFL?

SPEAKER_02: 21:46

Um haven't forgiven him yet, by the way.

SPEAKER_01: 21:49

That's a fair it's a fair transition, right?

SPEAKER_03: 21:52

Okay, there's a fair gap in there. So I retired in 2011. Um, when you retire from Paralympic sport, very rarely do you have something to go to and money behind you, and you're not getting all the sponsor dollars and stuff like that. So for me, it was a decision that I made to get into the workforce and try and build a career, and so my focus became just work, work, work, and just that's all I needed to focus on. Um and then I kind of had a few moments where I'd go back and play like the odd tournament and go and have a hit with some friends and things like that. Um and so then that was kind of it. I didn't have any sport, like I did a couple of marathons in that time, but I didn't do tennis, I didn't do basketball, I didn't do anything else uh unless someone kind of invited me for a social hit every now and then.

SPEAKER_02: 22:40

Just one thing on that a marathon. I remember I remember passing you. I did the Melbourne half that year, and I hadn't seen you in super long time. And I remember running goddamn slowly, and I'm like, Dobby! You're like, hey, and you're like flew off ahead of me. And I'm like, he is doing that for 42 kilometres. Can I ask what your time was?

SPEAKER_03: 23:00

Uh my best time was 353.

unknown: 23:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 23:05

So my first one was 407. I was pretty annoyed because I wanted to beat four hours. Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 23:10

You're not competitive at all later. No. No.

SPEAKER_03: 23:13

Um next one I did was 353, and then a few years later I'd moved up here. I wanted to do the Gold Coast one. Uh COVID happened, it got cancelled. And so I did that on my own on a Friday morning. I took the morning off work. I needed to do the marathon that day because it was the last day that you could log your time. And so I took the time off and did it on my own along the river. That was a pretty boring and lonely experience. I had my wife who would just kind of I kind of did loops around our house at Newstead at the time, and she'd just bring out some water as I went past and I'd keep going along. And so that took me a bit longer, that one, but it was uh a pretty brutal one.

SPEAKER_01: 23:51

What what sort of a role I'm just envisioning as as a very sporty person as well? And I think we're all sporty here in the room, and through your emotional journey in particular, through that whole rehabilitation and the re-identity, what sort of a role do you think that had for you is in as far as your rehabilitation, all that movement, all that exercise?

SPEAKER_03: 24:09

Yeah, it's really important. Like it's uh and for a number of reasons. Like there's obviously there's the community side of it when you're moving, you're with other people most of the time. I'm a better person when I'm active. Um and probably the reason I didn't answer it before, but the reason I got into AFL was partly because my wife was like, You probably need to do something, right? You can't just work. So we created this league that we could go and play AFL and do some stuff there, and so that got me out of the house and go and gave me something to do. And and now there's there's new things that we do, and so it's a hugely important part of it. Like physical well-being is really important, like being in a chair is pretty hard, like you're sitting down all the time, and so you need to be active, and all the stuff like shoulder health is really important. So as I'm getting older, like my my activity levels and or activity types are changing to be less kind of impactful on the body. There's there's no marathons anymore, there's none of that. Um, but it's really important part of my life.

SPEAKER_01: 25:13

Yeah, I just want to touch on what you mentioned. How old were you when you got married?

SPEAKER_03: 25:19

I don't know. 30 Careful.

SPEAKER_01: 25:23

Eight nine. Okay, so reasonably recently. And and what sort of a supportive role we just touched on this with the last guest, and just the the importance of one with your identity, but you being able to be you and go out and chase your dreams and the level of support you're getting from your wife. How important is that for you?

SPEAKER_03: 25:40

It's massive. She we've got two young boys, she does all the stuff, right? And we have a funny example yesterday where I made a funny comment to try and throw her under the bus about something on a school group chat, and for once I didn't actually know the class that we were in, it was about a different class, and she's like, I love how attentive you are to school details, and I'm like, it backfired completely because I was trying to be funny to get her in trouble, but uh I was the one that uh was probably undone there.

SPEAKER_01: 26:12

Yeah, you touched on community before. How powerful's community within the the para sport?

SPEAKER_03: 26:18

It's massive, like you you get people that have been in their chairs for or in with a disability for for longer than you have, but like it's kind of like the spectrum of life, right? Like you'll have some guys that are new, they're two, three, four years in, they're kind of learning the way, they're still working out how they move and how they get their chair in and out of their car and how they live life and the things that they need to consider. And then you've got guys that have been in there for longer than I have, and I learn off them every day. And so some of my best friends now that I wouldn't have known or wouldn't have come across are people that I've met through the disability community, and we're pretty well, we're very proud kind of group, but where we are always advocating for what is, I guess, a better world for people with disability, which is a a powerful thing, but we're also like it's a pretty insular community in a way, like you kind of word of mouth travels pretty quickly within the disability community, and so kind of it keeps you in check a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 27:26

And you mentioned before, because I know that you're you're you're on a bunch of boards and a big advocate for for people with disabilities. Can you just tell us about some of the pathways that you have built and what's still missing? What do we need to do?

SPEAKER_03: 27:38

Oh like I I guess I've been part of the build, like I am very clear about that. I there's people that were there before me doing a lot of this work and I help drive things. Um I don't think things are missing. Like I think we're at this point now where community and society understand that we need to be more inclusive. And a great example of that is Brisbane 2032 Games Vision launched last week. One of the commitments is around accessibility and and putting that in everything that they do. So really good point that we've got to around like the desire and the understanding of it. Um we still need to give more people with disability an opportunity and and to be bigger than just their disability. So not everyone with a disability wants to be an advocate or wants to be in a stakeholder session to make things better or wants to be part of a co-design process, they just want to have a job or they just want to play a sport. And I struggle with that a little bit because I'm like, everyone should try and make whatever sport I'm interested in at the time, they should be focused on that and they should make it better and bigger, and we should all be doing that. But some of them like, I just want to turn up and play, right? Like you can be the guy that creates the the pathway and then the the environment and you can work with government to make better investment and make things more inclusive. I just want to like turn up and play footy or pickleball or tennis or whatever it is, right? And so um I do struggle with that a bit.

SPEAKER_00: 29:14

You talked about when you uh the part you know, we made it sound so easy. You you know started playing tennis and then you turned up in Beijing. Like I'm sure that it wasn't that easy. I'd love to understand that what that journey was like. Especially now that you're talking about that that whole thing for other people and creating pathways. What was your journey like getting to that Olympics?

SPEAKER_03: 29:37

Um I had really good people. Like the coach that I had in rehab was my coach in Beijing. He was my he was my coach until I retired. Oh wow, from 2001. Phenomenal man who's still coaching to this day. And what's his name? Give him a plug. Greg Crump. He um I think last year he got coach of the year or something in like in for the International Tennis Federation. Like he has been doing this for f probably 40 years. So these coaches, do they specialize in um Yeah, he was a college tennis player who came back, his dad had been working with a guy in a wheelchair. Yeah, his dad was a tennis coach, his dad then decided I'm gonna hang up the coaching hat and whatever else you use to coach, rackets, ball bags, whatever it is. And he's like, You should take over. And so he just set up a program and started running it, and he self-funded like a lot of the trips overseas to be with players. Does he have able body that leads? He did at the time. Like when I first started, he was just a tennis coach that had a wheelchair program as part of his thing. Now he's just he works for Tennis Australia, he's a dedicated wheelchair tennis coach. Um, so I had him with me that whole time, but I also had a girl called Danny De Toro who was a world number one. When I had my accident, she was world number one or world number two at the time. She was my training partner. A guy who had won a World Team Cup with Australia was another one of my training partners, and then Dave Hall, who in my view is in the International Tennis Federation's Hall of Fame, he will always be the GOAT for me. I know like they're always contentious discussions, but he was the guy that kind of when it was hard and when it was starting and having all the the conversations with Tennis Australia about integration into the Australian Open, like he was at the forefront of those discussions and and did it all. He won ten Australian Opens, ten US Open, he won gold at Sid in Sydney at the Paralympic Games. He's just released his book. It's tell us a little a little bit about the different divisions. So there's well, there's three divisions in wheelchair tennis. There's there's men's, women's, and quads, which is a mixed gender division. So to be in the quad division, you essentially you get classified to determine your level of disability. Um if you're in, you're in. If you're not, you're in the open division. So um so I played in the open division, Dave Hall was in the open division, um, Ben Weeks, who I think is a seven-time Paralympia now, like he's been going around a long time. He was my doubles partner in Beijing.

SPEAKER_01: 32:17

Wow, seven Olympics, and you do that every four years. So he's been doing this for a quarter of a century.

SPEAKER_03: 32:23

He went to one before I did, and he's been then to everyone since, and he's still going. And I talk to him every time I talk to him, he's close to retirement, and then you see him at the next one, and so I just think he'll be there in Brisbane in 2032, and I'll get to take the kids.

SPEAKER_01: 32:37

And how old would he be now?

SPEAKER_03: 32:39

He's a couple of years younger than me, so he'd be 42, I think.

unknown: 32:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 32:45

So, yeah, so you got Yeah, so back to the journey part, I guess it was really hard. Like you're self-funding a lot of the time, you get a little bit of help from Tennis Australia, a little bit of help from the Institute of Sport, then it's all sponsors and community donations. Like my local footy club would take a blanket around at half time to raise money for a trip that I needed to go on, but the rest of it, if you didn't have the money through sponsors or donations, it was self-funded. Um, so I did that for what eleven years or something.

SPEAKER_00: 33:14

You don't have the fanfare like the the other athletes do, right? Like the men like the Paralympics is we still have that stigma, which is another conversation.

SPEAKER_03: 33:24

I had a couple of injuries in that time that kind of set you back, and then I mentioned earlier, I did a bit of work with a sports psychologist. A year out I was in a pretty bad way, like mentally from tennis. Like it was just I wasn't getting the results that I thought I should get. I then started to question whether I belonged in the sport or in the group that was going to go to the Paralympic Games, and Institute of Sport put me in touch with this guy that was phenomenal. He he was a uh kayaker, he'd been world number one going into three games, he was going to win a gold medal, and he had to pull out from injury before each game, so never got to go. And he was my sports psych and he kind of just took me through this journey of like one teaching me how to kind of deal with my emotions on court, which was a huge uh help and and something I still kind of use. I was talking to my six-year-old about it the other day, he kind of didn't understand the concept, but um, but something that's really stuck with me is it's how to manage your emotions in in pressure situations. Um, but he also like really sat me down and just went, Why don't you think you belong? And he's like, Well, number one, how often are they training? But how often do you train? And there was always that marrying up of effort. And he's like, Well, if you've got the same effort and you're in the same tournaments and you've got the same draws and all these things, then you belong. You might not get the results and you won't get them all the time, but creating the same opportunity, right? Yeah, you've got the opportunity to be there and to win.

SPEAKER_01: 34:54

What's your current view on leadership and governance at local, state, and federal levels? Is that opening up Pandora's box?

SPEAKER_03: 35:02

Uh no, it's not. I again I I take a uh I guess a pragmatic view on on this, where I like to think, and I've met lots of politicians over the years, and I've worked for a few of them, um, and lots on both sides of politics, and I fundamentally believe that they're good people who get into it for the right reasons and then who want to make a difference because it's not a very glamorous life, and there's all the stuff in the media at the moment around travel and all that kind of stuff. It's it's not as glamorous as what it seems, and um and so I think that they are trying their best and they make policy decisions for the betterment of the country, whether you agree with the the ideology behind that or not, they're not doing it in most cases for the reasons that end up in the paper. And so uh I think everyone does their best, and there's certain things that you that I would like to change as a I'm sure everyone uh in this room has things that they'd like to change about the way we govern the country. Um, but I think they're all doing a pretty good job. Very safe answer. Yeah, it is, but I I genuinely believe it, right? And I I I honestly believe that the people making these decisions, it's hard. And you make a policy decision for the majority of the country that's gonna try and make the country or the state or your local government area better.

SPEAKER_00: 36:31

That's your job, right?

SPEAKER_03: 36:32

Yeah, it is, so it's your job, and they're not shying away from that, but you go through this process of policy creation that you try and get it right for as many people as you can, but there's gonna be people that you don't get it right for, and then there's gonna be unintended consequences that you just didn't see in that process. Yeah, that's true, and that's not that's a risk.

SPEAKER_01: 36:49

Can we touch on now? You've been very vocal about your uh your choices on where we should have the the 2032 Olympics. Let's just touch on that for a minute.

SPEAKER_03: 36:58

I'm very happy.

SPEAKER_01: 36:59

Yep, happy with the end result.

SPEAKER_03: 37:01

Very happy with the end result. I it's the right decision. Um I wish we didn't waste the time that we have had over the years, um, but things are moving. Um, things are happening now, the the government's moving at a rapid pace, um, and we got there in the end. And I also go the majority of the time when Olympic Games and Paralympic Games gets announced, it's about seven and a bit years. So we're not that far behind where everyone else has been.

SPEAKER_00: 37:34

Um I I don't think the timing's an issue. Like I think we got there at the right time.

SPEAKER_01: 37:40

Elia, what are your thoughts? I'm curious to hear what Elia's got to say.

SPEAKER_02: 37:45

I just think it's great for the generation of my kids and my grandkids and my great-grandkids that aren't here. And we've got an amazing city we live in, an amazing planet still. Yeah, there's some tough stuff happening, but where we live today having this podcast, we're pretty blessed. And it's only going to get better in the games is a big reason for that. And I think we should be grateful for having them. So I only think it's good what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 38:10

Aaron Powell, but the decisions have to be right. And that's a thing, right? Like we we can't like there were obvious choices there that took us ages to get to. Um and I'm I'm with you, I'm happy with the decision that we finally got to. It's just that process um frustrated a lot of people. It it created a lot of frustration, confusion, and also lost a little bit of confidence in the people. That'll all be forgotten by the time you know the gates open and and the games start. We won't even remember uh everything that we went through.

SPEAKER_01: 38:41

From as a as a construction professional or ex-construction profession, I think that there's uh there's a lot of work to do in a in a small period of time. We're still in the planning phase, and I think that as we get nearer and nearer, there's going to be a lot of work to do in a very short period of time.

SPEAKER_00: 38:56

Well, my wife, so we traveled across Europe a few months back, and every time we went to an Olympic city, um, she looked and said, Oh my god, we're in trouble. Looking back at the infrastructure that we have in Brisbane versus the infrastructure that is that is uh in place or ha was in place in some of these cities that hosted an Olympics before. I'd love to get both of you.

SPEAKER_02: 39:20

You you guys are sports administrators and and you have she there before you know, was she there seven years before?

SPEAKER_00: 39:26

That's why I'm asking you. Are we in trouble or is that an unfair statement?

SPEAKER_02: 39:31

Oh look uh the thing for me that I I take this in life wherever I go, and Michael kind of touched on it earlier. Sometimes the journey is tough, but if the outcome is good, we just got to focus on that outcome.

SPEAKER_00: 39:42

Aaron Powell So you're you're confident that that we are on track, we'll get there?

SPEAKER_02: 39:46

We we have to get there. We will. We totally will. It's gonna yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:50

There's a pretty hard timeline, right, of when this is where you need to be ready. And every game that I can ever remember, that there's a well it's probably since Right, there's an article that pops up. And I think it's happened once, but venues are not going to be ready. We should just have it in Sydney again. Like that's always the article that's there, okay? And but there's a hard timeline of when this is going to happen, and we will be ready. It will it will cost more, some things will change, like in the planning of it all, but we're we're on track.

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

We just don't want to be the candidate of the modern era. That's that's what we want to avoid. That's what I'm worried, and I'm you know, I'm hoping we'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01: 40:36

What's your mission and purpose for the next up until 2032? Have you got some milestones and there's something that you'd like to to reach that you can share with us?

SPEAKER_03: 40:46

Oh, there's a few. I but my my mission and purpose always come back to creating more opportunities for more people, and whether that's in sport or employment or just in life, right? I I want to be able to just help people get further along the journey than where they currently are, and and if I help one person in the next 10 years, then I'm I'm okay, right? Like that's that's the thing. And there's people I mentor through different scenarios in their life, and I'm really happy doing that. And so that's kind of if I just do that, then I'm okay. But then I've got professional goals that I'd like to do. Um, I'm really happy kind of with my lot, my lot at the moment. Like it was interesting. This time last year, we had this conversation. I was all about consolidation. I'd just changed jobs and was just that was going to be my lot for a bit, no boards, anything like that. I'd got off a few boards and and then within the space of a month, a couple of really good opportunities presented themselves that I just couldn't say no to. And so had the conversation with my wife, and she's like, Yep, go for it. It just it's a too good of an opportunity to pass up. So can year of consolidation quickly became a year of kind of just let's get through the year. First year of school for our son, got a two-year-old at home as well, which he's um he likes to mix things up a bit. Um, so yeah, so I my goals I don't know, I I still dream that maybe I make a comeback in a sport and 2032 looks maybe there's a grand and goal jumper jumper on there somewhere.

SPEAKER_00: 42:24

But this is what I was gonna ask about what's your transition been like? Like we talked about your transition before, but it seems like you created a whole league to just keep in the sport again.

SPEAKER_03: 42:32

So um you're gonna eventually transition to something different, or it's very hard to find a sport when I'll be 52, I think, when the games roll around or close to it. It's very hard to find a Paralympic sport that is suitable for a 52-year-old that doesn't have a great deal of time to focus on your fitness. So um I'm running out of options.

SPEAKER_01: 43:00

Um what about table tennis?

SPEAKER_03: 43:04

So I was never it was it's it was always a joke within the Australian team that my role in tennis was to hang out at the baseline and just kind of chase everything down. It was never very good a touch around the net. Um so I'm not sure table tennis is my is my sport.

SPEAKER_01: 43:20

What about darts?

SPEAKER_03: 43:22

I don't think it's a paralympic sport, no.

SPEAKER_00: 43:24

I don't think so, though.

SPEAKER_03: 43:25

Yeah, uh like there's some there's some options there. I don't think I will do it, but I I don't know, like you retired from tennis for a couple of years after that, you always dream about making a comeback. I go and see the guys play now, and the the top ones will be here at the Brisbane International in January, and I'll go there and tell my son that dad used to be that good, but I'm not sure that I was. Um they're pretty good now, and the game's moved on quite a lot. Um so I don't know. I I don't have a I don't have a firm plan, but I also I I I'm happy if I'm at the games watching with my family and have played a role in making it the best games that we've ever had.

SPEAKER_00: 44:06

You you talk about um you know the games improving. How do you think technology is assisting, um, especially in the inclusivity space?

SPEAKER_03: 44:15

Yeah, from a wheelchair tennis perspective, the the chairs now um like they've got less um like they sit taller, like they're like they're doing a lot of work in the gym, like we did it, but I I think they do a lot more of like their core strength and being able to sit up taller in their chair, and some of the chair designs have moved, like the guys that can kneel in their chairs are like kneeling, and so then they're kind of their body is not seated, so they kind of get more clearance through their through their hips, and it kind of gets them back into that traditional kind of tennis like hip position. Um but even like when I was playing, like my one my chair was like one of the first chairs that had kind of like a front knee restraint to to not only hold you down but to hold you back in your seat to reduce the I guess the loss of efficiency in your movement. So you want to keep your hips and your like your thighs really locked in so that any movement you get through that area is a dynamic movement in your chair that you're trying to achieve. And so that was like kind of groundbreaking at the time. There's like one or two other guys that were doing it, and and I started doing that, and then now you look at it and they're like carbon fiber molded seats that are like that they've had every inch of their body measured and they slide in, and like I don't even know how I'd get into it. Um but they get into it and they're they're pretty they're pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_01: 45:48

We're we're we've uh we're just about out of time. Is there last questions and is there anything that we haven't spoken about, Michael, that you'd like to speak about before we rip into the quick fires?

SPEAKER_03: 45:58

Uh no, I'm pretty good. I it's been a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 46:01

Don? I've got a I've got a question for each of you being sports administrators. How is it improving inclusivity? I know there's a like you know, the last Paralympic was probably one of the best advertised and and pushed. What are we missing? And is it getting better?

SPEAKER_03: 46:18

Oh, it's definitely getting better. It's the third biggest uh standalone event in the world behind FIFA World Cup and the Olympic Games. Like for the Paralympics to have that level of profile, and yes, the the athletes don't necessarily reap the rewards of that, but it's people are on this, like they love it, and the stories that you see and I think we do this. It's phenomenal. Like since London is like I retired before London, but that's like I don't have many regrets, but I kind of wish I was part of that one because it was it was the game changer in so many ways. And why is that? Oh, they they just they really embraced it. They it was the it was kind of the evolution we had um like Sydney was like the first time they'd sold tickets to the Paralympic Games, like they were always just given away. Athens was a bit of a basket case and no one really likes to talk about it. Beijing was phenomenal, but for in a really different kind of country and different environment. So London was the next one where they they really set out from the start of making the Paralympics this super inclusive big event that was going to like change the the narrative on disability in the UK uh and and globally beyond that, and and they succeeded. They did like such great work, they had employment programs that kind of wrapped around it for legacy, they've employed an extra million people with disability like since the Games, like they're really life-changing events, and they have these wonderful advertising campaigns to really promote the games and bring it on par with the the Olympics, and it it changed the narrative of Paralympic movement, and and since then we just try and build on it each time. And we obviously Tokyo was hard because it would have been fantastic, but then we had COVID and the delays, and it was a really different event. Paris was was excellent. So it's just gonna keep getting better and better, and I think LA is gonna be phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00: 48:17

Exciting times ahead.

unknown: 48:19

I am looking forward.

SPEAKER_00: 48:19

And and the individual sports, what they're doing as well, like swimming, you know, consolidating some of the events. Track and field's always been at the forefront. So tennis with what what you know you you're doing. Um what's your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02: 48:33

I remember um my next door neighbour, we were talking about Ash Barty, and my next door neighbour's dad was this one who's just playing cricket. And he said, Oh, um cricket's different now, you know, with players like Ash. And this little boy next door said, Why? She's one of the best athletes in the world. What do you mean it's different? Hasn't it always been this way? And I think, you know, what you said, Michael, that everyone just loves the inclusive side of sport. And the generation doesn't know any different now, and nor should they. And it's only going to get better and better and better, and we're not going to accept anything but parity. And that appetite is just going to get bigger and stronger. So I think we're we're moving in the right way.

SPEAKER_00: 49:16

A good athlete is a good athlete, regardless whether they are a female, a male, able-bodied, disabled, doesn't matter. A good performance is a good performance, a good athlete is a good athlete. Like what you've achieved, right? Like, honestly, i it we've spoken to a lot of other able-bodied athletes. It's no different to the challenges that you've had to go through to achieve what you have to achieve.

SPEAKER_02: 49:37

So I think people are more excited for it though as well, because there's just so much more awareness. Like we just can't wait to watch, or like you know, Mike will say, I did this with AFL. I'm like, I'd love to watch that. Like you you you want because you know about it now, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 49:50

It's I've been watching some of the basketball. Like it's crazy. The ta they're brave, huh? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02: 49:56

Like the the Have you seen AFL? You should watch these guys play.

SPEAKER_00: 49:59

Honestly, I've never seen it. I've I've been watching basketball games and they are next level. Like it's it's crazy. I'm I'm a huge basketball fan, not so much AFL. I'm a bombers fan.

SPEAKER_01: 50:11

All right, let's let's rip in. To the person out there right now who's going through some tough times, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03: 50:21

Keep pushing. Like that's I think things turn around, get better, you've got to keep moving, keep moving forward. Um, it's hard. Reach out to people and talk about it. Like it's um the community is an awesome part of the society, and and so be a part of that as much as you can.

SPEAKER_01: 50:40

Well said, hidden talent no one knows about.

SPEAKER_03: 50:42

I don't have many that people don't know about because I'm pretty good at telling people how good I am. Um I've recently taken up pickleball um and I won gold in my first ever doubles tournament at the Australian pickleball championship. 2032, that could be the one. Now I'm a pickleball player.

SPEAKER_02: 51:00

That's we'll see.

SPEAKER_01: 51:02

Something you once believed and later found out wasn't true.

SPEAKER_03: 51:09

I really struggle with this one. Like I know they're meant to be quick fire, but you when you sent them through, I'm like, I don't know. I I think it comes back to to people. Like and and people think that there's that people do things for the wrong reason. I understand there's a bunch of people in the community that do pretty terrible things, but on the whole, people are good people, and I think it took me a little while to kind of realise that the if you ask people to for help, they will generally say yes.

SPEAKER_01: 51:43

What are you obsessed about?

SPEAKER_03: 51:44

Pickleball. Um, but more so but my boys and my family.

SPEAKER_01: 51:51

What are you really bad at?

SPEAKER_03: 51:53

Saying no to things is a thing that's got me in trouble a lot over the years. Um I'm getting better at saying no. Um, but I think something I'm working on is my ability to focus. I kind of wish that the government had made the social media social media ban for everyone.

SPEAKER_01: 52:13

And if you could spend 24 hours with anyone on the planet, who would you choose?

SPEAKER_03: 52:17

I talked about this with my wife, and I said I probably should choose you. And she said, You're not going to choose me, so don't pretend that you are. I grew up in the 90s where basketball was massive everywhere. Uh Michael Jordan was the biggest thing in my life, and I imagine it would it I'll it would definitely be him. Um I'm big Michael Jordan fan.

SPEAKER_01: 52:41

The greatest lesson sport has taught you.

SPEAKER_03: 52:44

Uh resilience and persistence is probably the thing. It's it gets hard, um, but but sport will will always be there and welcome you back. And um and if you persist at something for long enough and give it a red-hot go, you'll um you'll do pretty well.

SPEAKER_01: 53:03

A belief about disability you wish everybody understood.

SPEAKER_03: 53:08

Yeah. Um people with disability I touched on it before. People with disability, they don't all want to be advocates, but they all want to have a a purpose and something to do in life, whether that's work or sport or anything like that. And I I'm very passionate about the employment of people with disability, and so if I talk about that part specifically, it would be that people with disability want to work, they just need someone to give them the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01: 53:36

A book we should all read.

SPEAKER_03: 53:37

Atomic Habits. It's probably the easiest one to answer. I I love it. I read it probably once a year.

SPEAKER_01: 53:42

All-time favorite movie.

SPEAKER_03: 53:44

This is pretty bad. Um, like it was gonna be Space Jam, the original, when I was thinking about it, but it's probably the Mighty Ducks trilogy, which I think is the I will argue about this. I think it's the greatest trilogy ever made.

SPEAKER_01: 54:00

A trait or attribute that you instantly respect in somebody?

SPEAKER_03: 54:05

Uh I think honesty and and fairness.

SPEAKER_01: 54:09

Proudest moment you've had as an athlete.

SPEAKER_03: 54:13

Beijing was obviously the an easy one to go with, um, but was fortunate enough through through hard work to in 2024 to be named the AFL National Disability Ambassador of the Year. Um that one still kind of gets me a bit emotional when I when I think about it because it was a lot of work to get the league started, and we had incredible growth over a two-year period, and I did a lot of work with some really great people and great partners to to create this really inclusive sport. Um, and then to to be recognised for that as the the best in the in the country for that year was pretty special, and then like got to take Harvey down to Melbourne and experience the grand final, and his Alliance supporter, which upsets me because I'm a cat supporter, but he uh got to march in the parade and lead the parade that year, and so that was a pretty big moment for the family.

SPEAKER_01: 55:11

Wow, the worst advice you've ever been given.

SPEAKER_03: 55:14

Uh this I hope my mum doesn't listen to this, but um it probably came from her. Um she's a she's just pretty simple country person, and she can never understand why I keep pushing for lots of different things and bigger and better things, and she always kind of asks me why I can't just like stay happy with what I've got.

SPEAKER_01: 55:39

The biggest misconception about disability.

SPEAKER_03: 55:42

Uh it probably comes back to that um that people with disability are just people and they they want to work and they want a purpose and they they want to be included in life.

SPEAKER_01: 55:51

Yeah, if you could change one thing about the world, what would that be?

SPEAKER_03: 55:54

Uh employment of people with disability. That's the the number one. I think that if we can get more people with disability working, it it shapes and changes society in a way that we we've never experienced and also their lives. And I've been fortunate enough to travel around the country talking to people with disability about their work life and the stories you hear where they might not be the the biggest or the most impressive job, might be their first job, they might be earning minimum wage, and the impact that that has had on their life. And I I talk about this story a lot, and there's a young girl in WA that I met that it was her first ever job, and I asked her what working meant for her, and she's like, Oh, my sister's a doctor and my brother's a lawyer, and so they've always been really kind and looked after me. But last week I'd I shouted them a coffee, and the thing that that meant to her just was that she could contribute to her family in a way that we all kind of want and we all do, right? But that was the first time in her life she would had the ability to to be able to share that moment with her brother and sister. Um, and that that's always stuck with me.

SPEAKER_01: 57:11

What a great story, mate.

SPEAKER_00: 57:13

Like if you if you put inclusivity into one sort of story, that is if you want to be included, if you want to allow people to be included, just let them just be themselves.

SPEAKER_01: 57:25

Last question must have attribute to be a true master. What a great way to finish. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute honor and a privilege, Michael. Hope you enjoyed this exciting episode of the Mastering Podcast. If you got value from today's conversation, hit that subscribe button now and share this episode with a friend. Until next time.